If you have the gift of gab as a main tool in your utility belt, then you can whip it out and use it in almost any social situation you can find yourself in.
So when I give dating advice, I’m always teaching guys how to be better communicators, and that means learning how to to tell stories and think on your feet.
In today’s video, I give some more tips on how to be a good storyteller.
Watch and enjoy:
About David
1.7 million men & women come to me every month to find the secrets to success. And after 20 years of coaching, I’ve discovered the golden keys to success in dating, business, health and wellness, and life.
I’ve helped millions of men and women around the globe achieve success in their dating, social and personal lives. I’m also a father to the world’s cutest little girl, and I am an unapologetic man. Some say I’m nuts, others say I’ve changed their life forever. One thing’s for certain: I’ll always give you the truth, whether you can handle it or not. I never sugar coat anything.
Nice is so overrated. I’d prefer brutally honest breakthrough to a “nice” rut any damn day of the week. If you’re the same way, then you've come to the right place.
Interesting exercise, having a purpose fosters engaging energy and owning your words, building on story adds layers of detail. Reminds me of that scene in Reservoir Dogs that a story teller has to give details to make it believable.
On a side note, saw this article in WSJ that has some good commentary on the issues of a male and female views on "normal" frequency of sex in a relationship, highlights a married couple that went without sex for a year, the story has a happy ending haha
https://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324874204578438713861797052.html?KEYWORDS=emotional+sex#articleTabs%3Darticle
Good advice, but lacking substance, and detail, as usual, on how to actually build sexual tension, and know if a woman is attracted to you romantically. . Wygant should re-label as a lifestyle coach, and not a "dating expert", as claimed. Details are always lacking on wygant's blog, on how to create a romantic connection, and how to get the "close" or date, with the woman you are speaking to, which is the most important part of an encounter. Anyone can pass the time of day with a woman, or person, with a story. Getting to the point of creating attraction, is at a whole other level, and needs to be explained for the guys here. I could do it easily...
@Bob. From what I can see, David throws stuff out there, and leaves it up to the peeps in the forum to comment on it or use it anyway they like. Seems like you would be free to do just what you suggested. Take the topic, and micro it down on how to create the attraction to close or date the women you meet. Have at it.
Enjoy your night..
Bruce
Bruce
He is the high paid "dating coach" making his fortune (I presume millions of dollars) as a professional "dating coach". I have worked very hard, and spent a small fortune, on improving my skills and interactions with women, and learning how to create attraction and very quick, romantic connections, along with advanced skills on how to close, and create sexual attraction, very quickly with women...I think it is his job, as a paid professional, to make these points clear (if he knows how), and make effective suggestions, and it is my job to point out his inadequacies, as paying customer, and fan, to promote improvements in his coaching. I will be happy to host a guest blog for a reasonable fee, to correct these iinadequacies. in his blog. .
Bob-
Maybe it's strategic...perhaps he doesn't give it all away in the 'free' blog? Goes into more detail when you pay? Just a thought, I have never paid for a lesson or coaching session, whatever it's called.
Storytelling....at any rate, it is all in the details and the enthusiasm. Personally, I know I am skilled at telling a story and I've just gotten better at it over the years through improv. Good storytelling is like sex...don't rush, don't forget the little details, slowly build up to the big finish.
If you're good at that...you'll get the girl without needing to know about 'closing'. She'll catch your rhythm through your story and be right there with ya.
Yes, the material on these blogs is more high level than his audio products where he goes into much more detail.
I noticed a change in the blog topics too. They used to ask a question to open up a discussion on some common hot button topic ( friend zone, flakiness, honesty, approach, etc ). Now they tend to be videos with a specific tip or insight. Me, I visit the blog mainly to shoot the breeze with John + Bob + Hans + Co and to give Melissa a hard time :)
Bob...lol. You are kidding, right ? You are asking David to give you a fee for a guest blog ? I sometimes don't know if you are kidding or not. I assume you are. The blog is free and accessible to everyone. That said, I find that, for a free blog, he gives really superb advice. No business person gives stuff away for free, so it is my educated guess that the paid products are of a different caliber.
Brad,
Of course I am joking. I have no interest in writing a guest blog. I do not want to become a "dating coach" and as I have said in the past, I think it is a bogus career, and lifestyle, that I would never consider. My point is, being a "lifestyle coach" is more suited for David's information that he covers, and especially at this juncture in his life. A "lifestyle coach" would be someone who is older, experienced in dealing with situations, people, and has experience with "life". I am not slamming David, I just think his time as a "dating coach" should be coming to an end soon. He may even have a bigger career ahead with a change in his coaching direction as a "lifestyle coach" He had told me through a private email a year ago or so, that he wants to pursue writing a "cookbook" and loves to cook as well. So I think he realized he will soon need to wrap up the dating thing, and find a new direction.
Consider this. David is in his 50's. He has had two failed marriages. He continued to give dating advice through his marriages, which I would assume would place a hardship on his relationships. How long do you think someone can give "dating advice"? Will you take advice from a guy in his 40's, 50's 60's, 70's? How old is too old to give "dating advice". Would you take dating advice from your grandfather or old man, and expect him to know how to relate to 20 or 30 year old women today? As we get older, we lose touch with the way younger people interact, and associate with each other, and can't relate to them anymore, or give advice on such matters. Dating is like any skill, and must be practiced and continually learn how the nuances change over the years. Of course people are people, and women will always want certain key aspects from a man, but learning to know how to "push these buttons" and get them to respond, changes with each generation.
How old is too old to be a dating coach??
"Consider this. David is in his 50′s. He has had two failed marriages."
My perspective on success in dating is the same is success in careers. To me the best mark of being successful in business is if you can get any job you want, if the world's sexiest companies are tripping over each other to get your attention. It is NOT staying with your first employer for your whole life. Staying put is often a recipe for stagnation, for creating a limbo dance where you try to get away with doing as little work as possible and your employer tries to get away with giving you as few rewards as possible. It doesn't HAVE to turn out that way, but the incentive structure of a 'permanent' setup tends to nudge in that direction. Now what was I talking about? Right, relationships.
"How old is too old to be a dating coach??"
Good question. In general I noticed old people tend to make the best teachers. But in the case of dating, it would definitely feel odd to listen to a 70 or 80 year old. I think I would still do it though if the substance stays solid.
It seems to me that in this age of smartphones and instant messaging, the art of storytelling has been almost lost. It used to be that when you got on a train or a plane, you would get into lengthy conversations with your fellow travelers. When I was younger, I used to hitch-hike a lot. I really had incredible conversations. Now, everybody has their head always buried in one of those damn small screens.
By the way, that PUA lingo sometimes gives me the creeps. 'Closing' a girl, what the heck does that mean ? It reminds me of those pushy car salesmen, who usually are an immediate turnoff. Most people I have ever met can immediately sense it if you have an agenda. So what does closing mean ? You have sex with her ? And then ? I agree with Melissa, if you do it right, things just progress naturally. And having sex with a woman is just about the most natural thing there is. As far as I have seen, women can smell a 'closer' from a mile away, and they usually don't like the smell.
"Now, everybody has their head always buried in one of those damn small screens."
Tell me about it. And the hilarious irony here is I am a real pro at generating distractions for people who are hooked on their small screens ;)
It's contagious, too. I often look around and see everyone else diddling with their distraction devices, so I whip out my tablet and start reading an e-book. Because it's better to be looking at your own screen than watching other people look at theirs. Plus I'm reading Richard Feynman's autobiography and it has me riveted.
Paper sudokus + crossword puzzles are rare nowadays, but I would count them as a prop that actually encourages a guy to approach.
I take advice from an 80 year old guy anytime. There is too much psycho babble out in the world these days, and these older guys will set you straight, because they have not been inundated by metrosexual mind blubber. My ex girlfriend's dad is one of these guys. You cannot bullshit him, he sees right through you. He always told me 'how can you expect a woman to respect you if you cannot even fix stuff around the house, keep a car running, and if you are unwilling to do the heavy lifting ?'
When I look around, I see just too many couples where SHE is the boss. That is usually the prelude to divorce. A woman needs to know that she can rely on you when the shit hits the fan, and she needs to be absolutely sure that you will take point when it is necessary.
Damn, Hans. First of all I am going to steal the term "metrosexual mind blubber" from you. It's hilarious! My brother is going to love it - he is a no nonsense blue collar guy. And a genius at fixing stuff around the house and keeping cars running. He loves old people too, incidentally. Whenever he is not fixing things, he spends his time researching how the world was a few decades back, back when things made sense and popular culture was still meaningful and interesting. Poor guy.
He has another term for the new wave of people like me who can't fix anything: "mechanical illiteracy". Last year, I started fighting mechanical illiteracy by fixing a broken window and taking apart my bike. Baby steps. They should teach this stuff in school. Seriously. Right in between the classes on german classical literature and algorithm design and analysis.
As for women though, I think a 'sophisticated' metrosexual who has the gift of gab and polished body language has MUCH better odds than a blunt no nonsense blue collar guy. I wonder if it's always been that way? My old folks are a real hoot in this department btw. They still think the key to a man attracting a woman is to first marry an employer who will provide 'lifelong' job 'security'. Boy are they in the dark!
Bob,
Aren't you in your 50's? Weren't you married a few times? Don't you date younger women? If I recall, you were giving Grant in depth advice what he was doing wrong to attract younger women. You know how to do it. So does David. After listening to David on Emily's show, I am totally convinced that he can still offer sound dating advice to young men. I don't agree with everything he teaches (heck, there's no one on Earth I agree with totally), but I benefit from what David does. I think everyone here does.
Yes to every question Mar. As an example, I met a 22 year old Chinese girl at the buffet two nights ago, and got her number after telling her she was Purrrty and how I loved "Asian women", How sweet and kind they were. she would not leave my table, after that, and we talked for a half hour. She is absolutely beautiful. Can't wait to take her out!
I was only curious about how old a dating coach can be effective. I mean, he has to think about these things. If I was in his position, I sure would be worried about it... I am the same generation as David, and think the same way on most things. But, if I was 20, would I bother listening to him? I don't know.
And. I was sick of the boring blog replies, and wanted to get some interesting conversation and opinions started. Looks like it worked, as usual... I always can stir up the pot.
Bob.. Just stopped in to see what was new on the blog... Looks like the only way to generate any comments is if someone comes in here and starts an argument! lol.
Anyway, in my honest opinion.. "Dating Coaches" are ineffective at ANY age. I honestly believe that.
Yes, it's true that by hitting on random women in honkey tonks, Chinese restaurants, bars...wherever.. You can get the occasional phone number, date, or even a lay or two. But honestly, how many of these ever materialize into something significant, or long lasting? How many women who's phone numbers guys get just flake?
I don't even bother to study, and have no interest in "pickup" anymore. I think it's useless.
Lasting couples meet in three ways...
1. School
2. Work
3. Social circle
Outside of those three, anything else is just relying on luck, or playing a numbers game.
If you are not in, or are too old / busy for school, you work with no single women, and there are no single women in your social circle.. Then you have virtually NO CHANCE.
However.. Lots of David's advice is geared towards building a larger, broader, social circle. (Filled with more women.) That, in turn, gives you a better chance of meeting someone through number three.
The way to build a larger social circle is through creating a bigger, better lifestyle.
Therefore.. Yes.. I agree that David would be much better served by becoming a "Lifestyle coach".
As far as going out, trying to get numbers, and asking random women out on dates.. I don't even waste my time anymore.
"Lasting couples meet in three ways…
1. School
2. Work
3. Social circle"
I think these days there is also:
4. Online dating.
I know two couples who initially met online and got married last year!
As for hooking up with random strangers - I have heard stories on the internet from people like David and Bob, but all the people I have ever known met in one of the four 'normal' ways. I stopped bothering with getting phone numbers from random strangers too because none of those ever materialize into anything. By the way ladies why the #@$@ would you give your phone number to a stranger you just met who you have no interest in following up with? That's just so ... womanlike. And not very smart, by the way. (yes they were real numbers)
But I'm ranting again. A big part of the Wygant way is becoming a regular at a few places. Then focusing on the staff and on the other regulars instead of on people you will never see again. Expanding your social network as you say.
Peter
Tuesday, May 14th, 2013
Bob, just out of curiosity: you were married a few times, what happened ? Why would a woman leave a guy like you ? Or did YOU dump them ?
Bob, anything between 18 and death is fair game. A 22 year old Chinese beauty sounds like you hit the jackpot !
I am willing to bet my life that David's advice is worth gold no matter what age you are. You are living proof that David's stuff works: you are in your fifties, and with the help of David's material, you rake in twenty year old hotties !
Interesting to know how things develop with Miss Shanghai - keep us updated !
"If you are not in, or are too old / busy for school, you work with no single women, and there are no single women in your social circle.. Then you have virtually NO CHANCE."
First of all I don't buy it.
Second of all let's assume for the sake of argument that you are right. Then you actually have THREE CHANCES: go to school, switch jobs to somewhere with single women around, or expand your social circle. Duh. :)
Techno.. As for the first two suggestions.. Going to school, and changing jobs, there are things out in the real world.. The're called BILLS, and they don't pay themselves. School is expensive, and time consuming, and in this age of working 55-65 hours / week, just to keep the bills paid, and be able to save a little.. There is no time or money left to dedicate to school. Gas just reached $4.00 / gallon here again today.. For NO REASON I might add,,so it takes a full time job just to keep the tank full. (And don't even bring up public transport, or riding a stupid ass bike, because work is over 35 miles away, and there IS NO reliable, 24 hour, public transport here. )
Now, as for expanding your social circle.. Yes. That is the answer, and that is what much of Wygant's advice is geared towards. ( as I already said).
As for online dating.. I think online dating is a joke. It's nothing but a bunch of women who think they are hotter than they are, comparing photos and financial stats, weeding out guys who would never give them the time of day in person.
Online dating is the biggest waste of time there is.
John-
Totally agree. 100%...about 'how to meet someone potentially long-lasting'...school, work, friends. Done and done.
Those guys I met a couple of weekends ago? Never heard from them. Who knows, probably have girl friends or are married and just looking for a quick hook up. I didn't know them from Adam...could have been anything. Not surprised.
Online dating was a nightmare for me...though I do know a few family members who got married that way.
School? Don't have time and don't need to...besides, at this age, everyone in the evening business classes would be married. Except for me.
Work. All the men are married. None of the women are. Part of the reason I am looking for a new job is to expand my work-flirt options. Seriously.
Friends. All married and for some seemingly impossible statistically speaking reason....don't know any single men. The rest of my friends are single women.
So...the latest thought is that we do more fun 'Meetups' or maybe volunteer. Could that be a thing? It's really sad because I have a ton of girlfriends who are still trying to get married and have kids and it's just not possible.
The last holdover dude I have from online dating has been trying to get me to go out to dinner with him now that he's sober. He texts the other night and asks if we 'can chat later because his Zumba class is about to start'.
Somehow, the fact that he does Zumba is worse than being a drunk with 2 DUIs and a suicide attempt.
FML.
Melissa.. Yeah, ex drunk suicidal guy doing Zumba? .. Yep, that's disturbing.
As far as expanding social circle, Meetup is great. I joined a local group for 30 something singles, and went to only one meetup. (It was on my 39th birthday, so a year and a half ago.) Met a few cool people. One was a local deputy sheriff, he was drunk as hell, and ended up hooking up with the only fairly attractive girl in the group. Really cool guy though. We found we had a lot of friends in common. As for the women in the group, all were really obese, but were cool. Only about 1/4 of the people scheduled to attend actually showed up. (Which, from what they tell me, is about typical.)
I had a good time though, and wanted to attend more meetups, but they always seemed to fall on dates where I had to work, and eventually they deleted me due to inactivity.
I'm in basically the same boat. I work alone, with no women. All of the women that work in the office are married. (Most are married to people they met at work, both to office guys, and to guys in the warehouse.)
I'd like to go back to school, but until I am out of debt entirely, it's just not possible. Plus, what am I going to do.. Quit a job paying roughly 70k/ year, and attend school, go into student loan debt, and get a degree to get an entry level position paying 35-40k/ year?
Also, ALL of my friends are married. None of them know any single women. And, I don't know about Detroit, but where I live, it's very "clickey". People are friends in very tight groups, usually people they went to high school with, or work with, and outsiders are rarely allowed into the groups. The Cincinnati social scene is a very hard one to crack.
But, like David says, being open, friendly, talking to EVERYONE, is the best way to expand your social circle, and improve your options. Now if I only had more TIME....
I've been thinking of the volunteering route, too. I think that would be a great way to meet good people. Let me know how that goes if you decide to do it. I haven't followed through with that idea because I don't know of any nearby volunteering opportunities and because I am putting all my eggs into my swing dancing basket.
Meetups as in meetup.com - I've done a lot of activities with them but for the most part am not optimistic about meeting partners there. It's too ... online and impersonal. The one group I know that makes real friends who meet outside of the group hosts all their meetups at someone's house though.
"All married and for some seemingly impossible statistically speaking reason….don’t know any single men."
Ooh, a math problem :) Well, here's a possible explanation: your single girlfriends don't know any single guys for you because if they did, they would date him. And your married girlfriends hang out with married people because being single and being married are two different lifestyles? Especially if it's married with children.
Fun math fact: statistically speaking, your partner is more likely than average to sleep around. It's a result of the way social networks are structured. No I'm not making this up, it's a known mathematical phenomenon.
Yeah, meetup.com...we have a good one called the Detroit Drunken Historical Society and we (meaning my girlfriends and I) are doing some upcoming events with them.
And like I said, Techno....it's still impossible that all the married couples I know don't know someone single through work or relatives. 50% of marriages end in divorce. They *have* to know someone...that just leads to my other theory though. Men cannot be alone after they've been married. They all get another girlfriend before the divorce is final...OR the reason they are getting divorced is because they had another girlfriend while they were married.
This is the only reason I can think of...
Maybe your social circle is so fabulous that the 50% divorce rule doesn't apply to the people around you?
There is also the possibility that they DO know single men but aren't telling you about them because those men Not Worthy. Maybe they are all suicidal ex drug dealers, or worse yet they take Zumba :)
As for the men not making time to really be single - one of my friends who gets women is a self proclaimed 'serial monogamist'. Meaning he dates one woman at a time, but before he breaks up with her he will first find a new one. Is that a bad thing? In his defense he is my favorite lady's man - a well mannered guy with staggering intelligence and ambition. The other lady's men I know tend to be the lewd out of control frat boy variety.
Hey, I bet he is a real world example of someone who can meet women outside of his work, school, and social circles, John. I know he doesn't meet people through work and doesn't go to school. And he would have a difficult time meeting someone through his social circles when those social circles include a girlfriend, come to think of it. I should ask him about that next time we meet.
Mike
Wednesday, May 15th, 2013
John,
You have created this formula for excuses which you have become good at and it's part of your life. Your end result always points to being single the rest of your life while the reason for the end result is someone else's fault like at that meet up place, clicks, you name it, you have given them the blame and then come here and write how rotten the experience was or how rotten your environment is for finding a woman to connect with. Yes life is not always what we expect but it's not that bad either! How did your friends marry? Do they live in the same city as you?
Speaking of boats, have you ever went on a singles cruise or don't you do that sort of thing? I don't think trying to find a wife at another job where you make 70K or more would work for you John, it would just add to your list of excuses....What are going to do, tour the place to make sure there are enough attractive women to flirt with before you apply for the job? lol
You are so much in your head it is unreal! And your closing excuse, meeting people...If you only had more time, there again another excuse in which you have created that points to you being single the rest of your life! Make time John! If you don't have time to meet people how are you going to have time for a relationship? It is easy to sit back and say how things don't work for you because of everyone else, just like it is easy for David to meet someone but has yet to find his soul mate. Should David quit looking for his soul mate because he met a lot of women which didn't turn out to be his wife?
Find something you like to do, and go meet people doing it! If you like go on boat cruises, go on a single's cruise! Try something rather than write on here how life dealt you a bad hand!
Mike-
I am going to come to John's defense here. Because I'm female....but we are experiencing the exact same thing.
It's not excuses, it's Reasons. The Reasons/Obstacles whatever that make it difficult to meet dateable, single people in our age range.
Time. I have my kids 50% of the time. That leaves Wed/Thurs and every other weekend for me to look and date. At least one of those nights, I have to take care of household chores. So, if I am not meeting anyone at work or through friends (which I'm sorry, I still think it's impossible that all the married people I know don't work with or aren't related to some divorced/single people...but I digress)...I have to get myself in position to meet some people in my off time. Tomorrow night? I am getting my oil changed. I bought my car at a fancy dealership....it takes a loooonnnggg time there to change the oil, but I'm excited because there's a nice cafe on the grounds and usually lots of men.
This is what it's come to...getting my oil changed. Unfortunately, they don't serve alcohol there so none of the men will end up having the courage to chat with me but whatever.
Saturday, I am going with friends to The World Expo of Beer. It's a great event...beers from around the world. Will a man break free from his pack and approach me?
Like John...I go out. I work. I have friends. I am single and alone and can't think of another damn thing to do about it. Actually, my situation's a bit worse because I'm not supposed to do all the approaching...just a complicated series of hand signals and hair tossing maneuvers and wait.
AND the most important part? Is the guy you meet even relationship worthy or actually available or not a douche or or or....
Melissa.. just ignore idiots like "Mike". People like him don't bother to READ what I post.
Mike says I blamed thing on the meetup group and complained about how crappy the experience is, when I CLEARLY said I had a great time, and recommended it as a way to expand your social circle.
Mike talks about me suggesting going to another job, and screening the place for women, when I CLEARLY said no such thing.
Mike talks about me complaining about how crappy my environment is, when I never said any such thing.
"Mike" and others like him are clearly stupid, and lack common reading comprehension skills.
I wrote about finding dating "prospects" AT SCHOOL, WORK, or through your SOCIAL CIRCLE. If there are no prospects there, work on EXPANDING your social circle, so that it BECOMES a viable place to find prospects.
FUNDAMENTALS.
I don't worry about what people like "Mike" say, because I give no credit to the opinions of clearly stupid people.
Oh, another one..
"Mike" writes about me saying that I would go to a job where I make 70k or more to find women there when I CLEARLY said I ALREADY make over 70k, and going back to school and incurring student loan debt, just to meet women, would be ridiculous, as I already make much more than most entry level jobs right out of college.
I want to know, is "Mike" having someone else type out his responses for him? I ask because given how he clearly CAN'T READ, I wonder how he is able to type out his responses.
Bruce
Wednesday, May 15th, 2013
@melissa. @john @technoboy. Based on what everyone's writing it does appear that no one has ever met the others in person. Why not make it happen and go somewhere where you could. Kind of like a dw blog meet up. @bob and some of the others could be part if it too. @melissa seems to be very open to experiences. Why not make this one of them. Somewhere. Everyone could come out behind the curtain that way too. Hope you can and will. Enjoy your day.
Hey Bruce,
I did propose that idea awhile back, and it was shot down, labeled as a "train wreck"...lol She might have been right, I almost was in a major accident while going to Chicago last week for a friend's funeral. The truck in front lost one of it's many tires and it hurdled right for me, I managed to avoid it with little room I had. They drive crazy fast in the Chicago area...lol
John,
I didn't insult your intelligence, that is not my intent neither did Melissa insult my intelligence and she came to your defense! All you did was rant, and avoided answering the questions about your friends success with getting married. I'm wondering why your friends are not alone and you are. All I see are excuses along with anger when those excuses are challenged.
You missed the point with the meet-up experiment which you tried one time so far. I didn't say you didn't have an overall good time, clearly you liked talking to some people there but you talked about how rotten the experience was for connecting with women. Firstly you said, the women were overweight, ok not you attracting to you which is understandable. Secondly you said the decent one (or the best looking one) hooked up with another guy and thirdly, 40 percent of people don't show up to those meet-ups. Even though you say you had a good time, it doesn't sound like to me your planning on going to another one anytime soon, are you? Then you mention your job, how you wouldn't leave your job because you make 70k a year. But John life is about taking risks, you don't sound like a risk taker to me!
Your assumption sounds like your list of excuses, I never said anything about you are going back to college to incur massive debt so you could met women. With your experience, another job might have something to offer but I said even if you could find another job, it wouldn't work out for you anyway for connecting with women whom you would consider dating. Again, here we go with your negativity but you loved going to school, right? lol And if I can talk to a cute gal in shark infested waters with nobody else around and she was previously swimming far from shore in the ocean when she stopped to talk to me, you can find single women to date! :)
Melissa,
I think your situation differs from John. You being female has a different approach to dating. I like the fact you are trying even though you have some ill conceived assumptions. First of all, you will be increasing your odds of attracting drunks that eventually you will have to dump. If a man has to drink in order to find guts to talk to you, he doesn't have real confidence. The nice cafe you mentioned is interesting, did you try it? One of the things that may break down a barrier for me to approach you is by observing how friendly you are. Talk to the clerk who serves you. If a guy notices you are easy to talk to, he'll will want to approach you. By hanging out there more than once increases your odds. But keep your eyes pealed for other safe places that you might want to explore! Even try a hobby that is mostly like by men. For example, if you joined some sort of sport, men tend to be geeks when it comes to sports...lol So they will find you easier to connect with. Keep in up Melissa, your getting there :)
Mike, you took my entire post, everything I said, and turned it into something I DIDN'T say.
I never ranted about anything. I never blamed anybody for anything.
I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume the problem was illiteracy ant poor reading comprehension skills. If that isn't the case, then you're just an A-hole who puts words into people's mouths, mis-represents what people say, without actually reading what you're commenting on before spewing off at the keyboard.
Mike-
I think it's cute how you talk like it's all so easy. If I was willing to make my life a life-long experiment, I would take bets right now that I could do what you say...go to cafes, smile at clerks, play sports with men (???) and still die alone. I did the math yesterday. In my 'available to date' life (age 16 up) I've been single (ie, no ring on my finger) for 12 years. NEVER has a man approached me outside of a bar type setting. A couple of clerks in stores have chatted me up a bit extra, but no man has ever had the gumption/interest/been actually single to strike up a conversation. That's a lot of years and a lot of different locales.
When I got divorced, I never thought it would be this hard. It's funny...last night I was out with some friends who are all in relationships and we were commenting about how back in the day, married folk would love to live vicariously through the adventures of their single friends. Not so any more! They see our pain and they are alllll stunned by how the landscape has changed. The husbands are all flabbergasted that a 'woman like me' hasn't been scooped up yet. Yep. Ah well.
And you missed the point. The 'nice cafe' I am going to tonight is inside my car dealership. That's funny because it's pathetic. It's pathetic that I am excited to get my oil changed because my car dealership is nice and I know that men go there/work there. It's pathetic that I will make sure I have a cute outfit on today to GET MY OIL CHANGED.
And I will sit there, smile and talk to everyone like normal, not play with my phone and try not to look otherwise bitchy/unapproachable/taken/distracted and see what happens just for kicks.
Tomorrow night I am going to a carnival with people from work. I am super excited...I love rides. Saturday is the beer snob thing. Can't say I don't put myself out there, doing the things I love.
People like Mike don't live in "Realville". They give people advice like "move to a different city", or "change jobs", or "go back to school",or my favorite, "just make time", without any consideration for people's individual circumstances. And any valid reasons you give for not taking their advice, such as Debt, family, responsibilities, they just write off as making "EXCUSES".
Making excuses is when you won't approach soneone because you're "too fat" or "too short" or "she won't like me" (which I don't do. I approach women all the time). Those are excuses, and what David is talking about when he says to "drop your excuses".
Not quitting your job because you have bills to pay (financial responsibilities) or not moving because you have family, a career, kids, etc. (Personal responsibilities) isn't making excuses. It's life's circumstances.
Ok Mike, I'll answer your question about why all of my friends are married. (Even though I know you're going to turn my answer around and turn it into something it isn't.)
Most of them married their high school sweethearts. A couple married women from the group we all used to hang out with when we were all kids.
That's right.. SCHOOL, WORK, SOCIAL CIRCLE. Imagine that!
None of them met in bars, or in street pickups, or online.
You know why else? Because, like most people, they were "Naturals". The guys just always had women. They were "just there". They just ALWAYS had girlfriends.
I, on the other hand, wasn't a natural. None of us were. If we were, we wouldn't be on this site.
Even Bob wasn't a natural. He had a coach.
That's the difference Mike.
Agreed John. The vast majority of relationships come from work, school, or social circles. Anything outside of that, the odds aren't good.
Melissa, I think I can explain why you don't get approached much: As guys, we know our odds aren't good. I'm pretty decent at talking to women, and can even get a phone number here or there. But nothing meaningful ever comes from those types of interactions. And I've been doing them for a decade. So I don't waste my time. As I'm sure John will attest to, there's only so many times you can do something without decent results before you just don't want to do it anymore.
This has nothing to do with fear, by the way. That's a common thing I hear women carrying on about. "Where are all the confident men?" "Why don't men act like men anymore?" Nonsense.
Are some guys just plain afraid to approach women? Sure. But even the ones that get over that fear know damn well approaching women out of the blue is a low-yield endeavor. Particularly with how narcissistic, rude, and genuinely unenjoyable a lot of women are.
So we don't approach.
Another way to think of it is this: Is it a guy's wisest move to keep betting on the 50:1 horse?
Call it excuses or reality, meeting single people becomes increasingly difficult the older you get. In college, everybody is single, and everybody is looking. Then, most people get married, which effectively takes them off the market, and usually for a long time. Sure, you could continue hanging out in college bars, but do you really want to ? I went to my favorite college bar again when I was 29, and everybody thought I was a prof, checking on his students. That is not good...
Just a few days ago I was talking to a very attractive woman at the gym. We had been checking out each other for a while, I think, so I talked to her. Now, I don't want to offend anyone, but we are here to help each other, right ? While I was talking to her, all of a sudden, here come her two small boys running towards her, hugging and kissing her. I would say there is just about nothing that kills off attraction faster than a scene like that. I know Melissa is a single mother, but this might be the biggest reason why she cannot find a decent guy. Most guys I have ever known are turned off by single moms. It is not even personal. As a guy, you immediately think ' well the amounts of time alone with her will be pretty much as rare as a Cincinnati Bengals win', and you also know there is always going to be the ex who is involved. On a purely biological level, people, especially guys, usually like their own kids, but not so much somebody else's kids. Now, even if you know that she is working, and making good money, in the back of your head you kind of expect her to eventually ask you to help pay the bills - even if that might never happen. You also know instinctively that, as for any mother, the kids will always, and always, be first. With all that going through your mind, you are one brave sailor if you still go ahead and ask her out.
So, I do believe that single moms are really having probably the hardest time of all of us in finding a partner.
Interesting comments and I am not offended.
I never saw being a single mom as an obstacle. First off, if you see me out, you would never think I have kids...I just don't 'look' like a mom. So I've been told. Guys I've dated from online all know and usually have kids themselves and don't want more. And all the women I know who have boyfriends or are on their second marriages have kids.
Honestly, guys. I would just like to know what I am supposed to do. I just made a pact with my assistant that I would try to make it through the summer without resorting to online dating again. That's the goal. Go out, do what I like, have fun.
Honestly. This is ridiculous.
"Honestly, guys. I would just like to know what I am supposed to do."
You're supposed to change your job, go to school, and relocate, of course :).
I have a 'no online dating' rule for myself too. And no bars / night clubs / restaurants. Because I like making things difficult for myself, that's why. Nothing worthwhile is easy, right? ( Actually, it's mostly because I just don't enjoy those things and therefore am no good at them. Shhhh - don't tell anyone ;) )
Honestly though Melissa, have you tried getting out of the bar and applying the throw-stuff-at-a-wall-and-see-what-sticks method?
Activities work well for me: dancing, running, hiking, rock climbing, ...
For you specifically: I often go to business + technology related meetups or conferences to keep my knowledge + skills sharp. Now if you go to somewhere where people are VOLUNTARILY spending time to learn new things (the voluntary part is key - they are not just working on climbing a ladder or having their company send them, they genuinely care about their craft for its own sake) - almost all the people will be razor sharp and really have their stuff together. I've met some great people this way. The biggest challenge for me is most of them are guys (hint hint). And no, my fitness hangup is not as big a problem at these events as you would think - they tend to attract well rounded people from various departments, not just 'Comic Book Guy From Simpsons' uebernerds ;). Though if you really want Comic Book Guy you can find versions of him at those events too haha.
Mel,
None of us like to think we have a "handicap" in any situation. The fact that you are a Mom, and obviously, like all Mom's, are proud of it, and are not about to apologize, or believe it to be a hindrance in dating, or anything else, is what you are genetically programmed to believe. Mom's believe their kids are the best part of their lives, and also believe men should recognize, and appreciate this. Mom's will always put their kids #1, in front of any man, or anything else, for that matter, which is the way it should be. But the man will always play "second fiddle" to the kids, and we are acutely aware of this fact. You need to recognize and try to put yourself in "our" shoes, to understand why kids are not necessarily a benefit to dating. Your feelings toward your kids do not necessarily transfer to the men you meet, regardless of what they say to you, or you believe they feel. Men will say anything to keep you happy, and have a "good time" with you, with as little commitment as possible.
When I was in my early 30's I met a beautiful young lady, with a one and two year old, who I was so enamored with, that I overlooked them, and ended up marrying her, and raising the children as my own, since the real fathers were not in the picture. I was at an age where I was ready to have children around, and that was a very short window in my dating lifetime. I certainly would have rathered she had not had the kids, in the picture, but decided I would have to deal with them, since I liked the mom so much. I did not want to raise more than two, (plus she was "fixed"), so never had any children of my own, genetically. I now question my decision, not to have my own genetic children, and have second thoughts about not finding a woman whom I could have (with no kids), but realize it is too late for me now.
I have met numerous women, with children, of all ages, since then, that I would have stayed with, for a long time, and one that I would have married, since my divorce, but at my age, will not tie myself down, and raise another man's child again.
You are about 40, so you are getting to the age where a 45 to 50 year old man, probably is done with raising children, and only a small percentage would take on the challenge, so that is indeed a factor in your dating prospects. The fact that you "do not look like a Mom" makes it even more difficult for you, since men will be seeking the benefits of a beautiful woman, and not expecting to have to deal with the burdens of children. Of course you will easily be able to get men to go out with you, but you need to be exceptionally careful about developing strong feelings toward them, regardless of what the tell you about how children "make no difference", until you really get to know the real them, after a considerable time with them. The fact that they are divorced and have kids,(who probably live with the mom) probably make them wanting to deal with more kids, even more reluctant, since they are probably enjoying their new "single" free wheeling lifestyle.
As far as "what you should do", you are already doing it. But, You are expecting too much, too soon. How long have you been divorced and single? You need to just get comfortable being single, dating occasionally, and developing new passions, and interests, that will make you happy being on your own, until the right man comes along. Maybe it will be best to stay single until your children are older, or grown. I'm sure you can "settle" and find a man to marry you tomorrow, but you already left a mediocre relationship, and certainly don't want to get back into another one. You seem to obsess over not being able to find the perfect man RIGHT NOW, and are very frustrated about it, and are developing a negative attitude toward all men, it seems to me. The older women that I date, (most with kids) seem happy just dating me, having fun, and knowing that when they do see me, we will both have a blast, and don't put pressure or expectations on me. If they do, I don't see them again. They seem to be happy just to find a man that treats them decently, is fun, confident, and spontaneous around them, even knowing I probably won't marry or date them exclusively. If I do find one "I can't live without" I will stay with her, and end my wandering ways. As I get older and older, I am sure that will come soon.
Don't mean to depress or upset you, but wanted you to get a realistic feel for your dating situation, from a man that would definitely be interested in you, if I saw you out and about.
Bob-
I think you know that I truly value your feedback at this point. Here's my deal.
Divorced for 3 years...have work, friends and hobbies (improv and I also sing on occasion). I have my kids 50% of the time. They are 9 and 10.
There is no way a man would meet them unless we were serious. There's no reason and I've made that clear to every man I've met.
If men are lying about not caring about the kids? That's news to me. 90% of the men I've dated have kids too. And I don't know if you know, but in my generation and in this area, most men fight for and get 50/50 custody. The days of a woman having sole custody are kind of over.
I can see a guy a couple of times a week, no kids involved.
I am not going to spend my most attractive years without a man, Bob. I am just not. But I am not a person who does bootie calls. I don't need to get married, I just need a steady Bo.
To me? This sounds like a man's dream. But I am wrong, I'm sure.
I guess I don't know how to get my point across. (John, am I offbase here?) The man fights for custody of HIS kids, yes, and that is usually out of bitterness to upset the ex. ( He usually doesn't get it, and if he does doesn't follow through with true shared custody). A man might want to get married, most actually do want a good wife. I do... The kids would make that impossible for one who doesn't want to raise young children for another 10 years or more. How long do you want a steady Bo? That is for a year or two at most, then more would be expected by both of you,...Like marriage, moving in, permanent situation, etc. I think there may be men out there who would love to be your boyfriend, but look ahead to a future, and that is where they may be scared off. I am just saying it may be more difficult for you, but certainly not impossible to find that man.
I do not think you understand the points I was trying to make, but maybe my points are not important, and I could be wrong, but Brad was kind of on the same train of thought.
I get what you are saying, Bob, but I know FAR too many couples on second successful marriages (with kids) to think that my kids are a deal breaker for some huge majority of men.
But, other than trying to depress me further, Bob- what is your point? Nothing I can do about the fact that I have kids. Should I go back to my ex husband? Get a vibrator until I reach menopause and don't care? What exactly is your point?
If your point is...'It's going to be hard, Mel' ....duh. I clearly know this. If it's hard because of my kids, nothing I can do. If it's hard because of my age, nothing I can do. If it's hard because I'm smart and driven....etc etc. Nothing I can do, Bob. I am who I am, I'm not perfect...few are.
So....again. What is your point?
Bruce
Thursday, May 16th, 2013
@melissa. I can not for the life of me why one of these guys isn't on the next plane to come see you. Your honest. Your open. You seem fun. You don't wear mom jeans. Your single. Your good looking. What's not to like. There are guys here that talk to u alot. Yet none of them will step up to the plate and come see you. And worse all they do is complain about not being able to meet anyone. No wonder there single. There like wizards without the Oz behind them. Come on guys lets see what you got. Isn't there anyone here who can afford a plane ticket to see. Stop whining and just do it. Melissa. You up for this? hope so. Who has the balls to do it? Enjoy your day
There indeed are a lot more good looking women than there are good looking men. It is how nature has designed us. A woman's greatest asset is her beauty, and she uses it to lure men. Men, on the other hand, are very much expendable. They die by thousands in wars. Imagine all the landing craft used during D-Day being filled with pretty girls. What a waste. There is a reason why women and children are always being saved first when there is an emergency.
That said, I and most other men I have ever known, are generally suspicious of pretty boys. We instinctively know that they are usually either gay, metro, or that they otherwise have female features that are of no use in a man's world. Something like: if you want to win a war, you need Sergeant Barnes (for those of you who know what I mean). Most women I know do not want a pretty boy either, they want a man who makes them feel safe, and who has enough testosterone to make sure she can build a nest, which he, in turn, protects and defends.
Why is it that humans are the only species on the planet where the female is the hot one? Look around nature...the MALE is the splashy-looking creature. The females are plain.
Anyway...I forget where this conversation was going but I had to mention what I saw yesterday:
I was at the carnival. I saw no fewer than 3 different couples, high school kids, where the girl was incredibly cute and the boy was hideous. Shockingly so. So much so that I was tempted to take pictures and make a blog about it. These boys- all super overweight, sloppy looking, just....really unattractive ...the guys who would have remained dateless till they started making money (in my day) were dating the cheerleader.
I would love to know what is going on. Did all the men die? I feel like something must have happened. I was listening to the radio yesterday and they were advertising a club and saying 'Ladies Free till 11' ...bet you any money that changes in the next 5 years. MEN will be getting in free because they will be the ones who need to be enticed.
It is a fallacy depicted by women, that they are the "hot one", as you put it. Only in the Avian world and study of ornithology, is the female the "uglier" version of the sexes, mostly due to the need for camouflage in nesting.
In the mammalian world the sexes are fairly equivalent in appearance. Horses, dogs, cats, and all other mammals that I can think of, have very similar appearance, with the male usually the more pleasing to the observer, due to extra muscling and size proportions.
If I were an alien looking down on humans, the male is definitely the more aesthetically pleasing specimen in the human species. Testosterone makes this the superior appearance of the two human samples. Of course we are assuming like age, weight proportional to size, etc.
In my case, I work very hard on my appearance, and have genetic advantages. But, I would say I am better objectively than over 90% of females in my age group from lots of experience in observation.
In human, like based male/female similarities between the two sexes, the male has better symmetry, skin, strength, and natural and unenhanced esthetic pleasantry from purely scientific observation.
Gotta get ready for my date...
Melissa.. I see this all the time too. Usually, the're high school age, much younger than us. The fat geeky nerds are the cool kids now. It seems like the athletic, jock types are the ones having trouble now. (Look how many young, athletic, guys end up on these boards.)
I don't think it applies at our age.
My theory is it's due to the popularity of video games, and computers, etc. A lot of the hot, younger girls are geeky, video gamer types. The geeky, fat, video gamer types are the gu
My phone froze in the middle of posting that...
But, as I was saying ..
The geeky, gamer type guys are the ones the hot girls are hanging out with now.
Doesn't necessarily mean he's "getting any" though. The're probably datingthe fat, nerdy guys guys, accepting rides and gifts from them, and banging the quaterback behind their backs.
Hans
Saturday, May 18th, 2013
John, with regard to your traffic light experience: I have never met a grown up person who would do this. Children do this kind of stuff. Seems to me that these two girls were rather immature. The best thing you can do, should this happen to you again, is to look straight at them and say 'damn, you are ugly'. That will shut them up, I guarantee it. And not only will that shut them up, it will only put a doubt in their mind for a long time, a doubt about their own perceived looks.
Hans, yeah, they were late teens, both good looking. Sure, they were immature, but they picked me to make fun of for a reason.
Like I said, that wasn't the first time something like that's happened. As far as the treatment I've had from pretty, young girls, that was tame.
I've had a lot worse.
Melissa,
A lot of men wonder why a great looking gal ends up with a less attractive guy. There reason why you see couples who are opposites in visual attraction is because men are more visual than women. The less attractive boy was most likely the one with the most guys to talk to her. He thought he had nothing to loose because he was not eye candy. Plus boys are taught that a woman is equal or some cases superior than a man. This is not to say women should not get equal pay for the same job, what I mean is the dating scene where you have movies that show the girls ask the guys out or women are the aggressors.It's a flip in the natural role between men and women where it screws them up later in life and that is most likely what your encountering in some aspects.
Men tend to over think which is a problem and you also have but in a different area. Men will try and think of the perfect thing to say, it makes them even more nervous to the point where it hinders their approach. They put more pressure of themselves than you would. It is why a lot of people find it easier to date in the work place. You already have something in common, so the guy will have things to say to you because he works with you. Two people can get to know each other outside a dating context. If you do decide to date, it is more grounded than if you meet some stranger on the street. This is not to say it is better to find a date at work, but to merely point out that expectations of a certain nature lead to failure. There are none of those expectations when your getting to know someone in the workplace, like there would be on a date or being approached in the street or store or lack thereof.
World Expo of Beer yesterday....omg. Beer from all around the world, all day tastings...I am still not 100%
On the man front...the place was crawling with men. I saw this guy who I thought was really good looking and saw him looking at me...he was wearing a fleece-type sweatshirt and it was really hot in there. So, when I walked by him, I said, 'wow...you look like you're really hot' and he laughed and we started talking. Spent a few hours walking around together with his friend trying different beers.
Funny thing though...he said that he and his friend had been talking about me from the moment I walked in. That they kept seeing me in the crowd and commenting on me being hot...haha, whatever. If I hadn't approached him? He would have just kept staring. Soooo predictable.
Anyway, we had a great time together. I gave him my number. He probably won't call.
I really don't understand men.
Bob- you are the only person I've ever heard say that men are more esthetically pleasing than women. No way.
" Plus boys are taught that a woman is equal or some cases superior than a man."
I don't believe this statement to be true... I was always taught that girls were the inferior, more frivolous, and weaker sex, and I believe most men still believe this. I agree that men are often nervous around beautiful women, but this does not mean they think women are "superior" over them.
Sounds like you had fun Melissa. You ARE getting brave, making a big move like that, to meet a man. I thought you said you would never do the "chasing" again?
I know of many people who believe the male figure is aesthetically much more pleasing to view than the female. And I am not talking about gay men, but from a purely artistic sense of symmetry and complication of achieving perfection. Of course, I was in the bodybuilding world for many years, and sculpturing of the human body is an artform to these people, both men and women. The male body has always been appreciated and portrayed in sculpture and art more so than the female (notice the most appreciated, artistic historic sculpures).
There is little distinction from one beautiful girl to the next. I just watched Fast and Furious and they had a scene of about 25 women dancing, wearing daisy dukes and bikinis, showing only from the legs to the neck. I could not tell the difference in any of them, as they all were almost identically shaped.
99% of men would say 100 out of 100 pretty girls all are pretty, and would bone any of them, because of similar dimensions and symmetry, (basically as long as they are skinny) whereas men will vastly vary in appearance, and be considered pleasing in many different shapes, sizes, and forms by both male and female.
Every pretty girl I see has basically the same "look" and build, and is proportionally the same. Men have many "looks" that can be seen as attractive from a purely aesthetic view. Some people think the massive body builder is a work of art, but most people appreciate the more common "Greek statues form" as the look of ideal, for the male figure. The male body is far more complicated due to visible, musculature, and has various forms of "beauty" from a purely aesthetic value than the more common look of the ideal female body.
Lately it seems, over 90% of women are obese and almost intolerable to even look at (especially in the middle parts of the country, it seems). Men seem to hold a more pleasing look, even when they are over weight and in comparably similar shape as the out of shape women, with all the associated unpleasantries that come from overweight women (celluloid, bowed legs, fat faces, huge butts, etc)
Eh, it wasn't a 'big' move and I didn't really consider it 'chasing'....just tossing out a comment. It's mind blowing though that he and his friend both thought I was hot for HOURS and never bothered talking to me. I was clearly there alone. It's the easiest place in the world to come up with a reason to talk to some one 'Have you tried_______' etcetera
I think we are talking about two different things. I'm talking about a beautiful female form and a beautiful male form. Symmetry being equal...the woman wins.
You are talking about the fact that the male form can tolerate age well...gaining weight, wrinkles, whatever. He still kind of looks 'fine' whereas a woman? She can look pretty hit rather easily. I think black people tend to look good no matter what weight. You put a fat black woman in a bikini next to a white woman and unless that white woman is totally perfect...the black woman will look more appealing. Skin tone, shape....all better.
Well, in a way I think Bob is right. Nature has no use for a woman to be beautiful after menopause (that should be around 45 to 50). I know a few women in their fifties that I would consider attractive, but they are few and far between.
Fat people, in my opinion, never look good, no matter what age or what color. The fact that pretty much all guys check out girls based on their looks should say enough about who is more attractive...lol.
Melissa, Bob - I agree; I have as of now never heard someone say that men are visually more appealing than women. On a purely and biologically basic level, the male woes and pursues the female, and that is mainly because of female beauty.
As far as I know, the bodybuilding world is mostly a gay domain. I have been to Thailand once, and the only people who do bodybuilding there are gay. There are also a lot of Western European bodybuilders, mainly because of apparently easy access to steroids. Surprise, surprise, most of them are gay as well. Bob, you apparently are not, and even if you were, it wouldn't be a big deal.
I also do believe that the whole Adonis Greek sculpture thing is very much homosexual as well. After all, 'doing it the Greek way' has a very clear meaning. I have gay friends, and they are all kind of obessed with their physical appearance.
The whole male vs. female aesthetic is cultural and historical. In many African societies where starvation is a huge problem, being fat is a sign of health and wealth. Healthy and wealthy is hot. That has carried over to the black American population for the most part. When I was a youngster and carried all my junk in my trunk, so to speak, black guys thought I was hot. Now, I'm "too skinny." Prior to the days of Twiggy (a rail-thin 60's model), they called photos of hot women "cheesecake" photos, not because they were tan and toned, but because they were white, creamy and plump in all the right places. In fact, if you look at the women in art prior to the 20th century, most women featured were obese by today's standards. Much like African societies, being overweight was a sign you got to eat, unlike poor people. Being poor is never "hot." Western society has gone in reverse because our cheap horrible food and sedentary lifestyle makes poor people fat and only wealthy people can afford to eat well and exercise.
Not to put words in your brain Bob, but it's likely you think that men can still be overweight and attractive because you're not gay and you don't think of a man that way. To you, an overweight man may be a hale and hearty fellow deserving of a hottie and fun to have a beer with. While I think women are more forgiving of a man's weight because men are not treated as sex objects, the reality is most women prefer men to be HWP, Study after study shows, women are drawn to the male with the classic upside down triangle physique, not an apple. You might not think it's bad for a guy to have a gut, but women have pounded the gavel on this one. And gay guys, still being visually-oriented guys, definitely don't like fat men, I think unless they fit into the whole "bear" hairy guy category. Sadly though for us hetero females, hetero guys are often too lax in their appearance because they are not judged the way females are.
yeah, well, women seem to think they can get overweight, or the other extreme, look like little stick girls, and still deserve a hot, great guy.
Scarlett Johansson,
Bar Refaeli.
Kate Upton,
THOSE are the kind of looks that men want. And MEN have dropped the gavel on THAT.
If you are female, and you are overweight, or TOO skinny, or have an ugly face, and men don't approach you.. it's for ONE reason..
THEY DON'T WANT YOU.
John-
A woman is FAR more likely to accept you than the other way around. No guy on this blog wants a fat chick, an ugly chick, a too skinny chick....not a one of you.
Yet...I myself and most of my friends have dated guys who were not conventionally attractive. Your argument holds no water!! So....knock it off!
You think I don't have panic attacks when you guys talk about no man wanting a woman with kids, no man finding a woman attractive after 45, etc etc. I'm 39 and the clock is ticking. I can't even find a man NOW and I'm good looking! What about all my chubby or not Scarlett Johanssen friends? Guess they might as well kill themselves.
Seriously...I've said it before...looks are the only thing that matter TO MEN. If you worked in a different job, John, where there were a bunch of women, you would get to know someone and hook up I am certain. Why? Because women see past the things that men cannot. "We are visual creatures" all you men whine. Why not just say, "We're shallow" ...speak the truth.
And 5'10"? Big freaking deal! That's average in the US for men! You know what's average for women? 5'4" and a size 12....willing to bet that all you men would call that person far too fat for your out of shape selves.
Ugh. None of this makes sense. You all want a hot girl but then never have the guts to talk to her or follow up when you do. You don't accept any form of fatness when you don't work out yourself. You want someone in her 30's when you're in your 50's.
Women are a lot more practical, I'll tell you that much.
Melissa. . All of that was in response to Sarah's comment..
"Study after study shows, women are drawn to the male with the classic upside down triangle physique, not an apple. You might not think it’s bad for a guy to have a gut, but women have pounded the gavel on this one".
What was the purpose of a comment like that, other than make anyone who doesn't fit that description feel like a piece of shit?
So, if a guy who isn't a perfect triangle physique has been ruled undateable.. ok, well men prefer a perfect hourglass shape, and perfect "moviestar" looks. Any woman who doesn't fit THAT description is undateable.
It goes both ways.
John
Monday, May 20th, 2013
This conversation only proves one thing..
Looks are ALL that matters. Period. Without good looks, nothing else matters.
Dating, relationships, attractions, all comes down to ONLY looks.
Anyone who believes otherwise is just a blind idiot living in a fantasy world.
Looks are ALL that matters.
That goes for men and women.
If you can't make yourself look good, then just give up.
I have.
Cool, John. Now we won't have to worry about having your progeny around.
I've seen your posts on this blog and how negative you are about your looks. Apparently, you're under 5'10 and have an acne-scarred face which turns women off based on your own description. You say you'll never have a chance and never have love. Yet, do you give women with acne-scarred faces a chance? Do you give "fatties" or "obese" women a chance?
When I look around, this is what I see: very few guys are really good looking. And with good looking I mean tall (above 6'2"), athletic, muscular, decently dressed, a proportional body and face (like you see only when you look at mannequins at Macy's). And that is just the very first impression. After that, very few guys have a low, bassy, male voice, move slow, talk slow, look you in the eye, listen, are socially apt, intelligent, ambitious, reliable, and have a good sense of humor. This is the prototype male, but if you are a woman, and if you want this type of man, you probably have to travel to every corner of the Earth, and even then, consider yourself lucky if you find that man. The vast majority of men are, well, pretty much the opposite of the above. I go to the gym a lot, and hence I do see a lot of naked guys in the locker room. I very much understand why women say 'honey please turn off the lights' first when they are in bed together, and why they have their eyes closed during sex. My goodness, I get visions of Herman Melville's 'Moby Dick' when I glance at those bodies. My first thought is that it cannot possibly be looks that attract females to males, because if that were true, mankind would be long extinct.
With women, I see plenty of decent or good looking ones pretty much anywhere I go. I am not sure about the Midwest, though...I have been to Omaha, Nebraska, once, is that the Midwest ? We were visiting a guy we met in Seattle, and I remember his daughters to be rather cute. But they were still in college, and very young...
Honestly Hans, I can't remember the last time I saw a man in person who was really good looking. The guy I met over the weekend was tall and had nice eyes and a nice face but he didn't make my knees weak. But, I liked him just fine. He's the one who is not going to call me because I am sure he has 60 girlfriends. Or at least one ;-)
Conversely, I see good looking women all the time....at least they look like they TRY. Stylish hair and clothes, nice presentation. Most men just exist. Breathe in and out. We're lucky they are not naked. When a man is a good dresser? Literally takes my breath away. Ah well...this is the Midwest.
Hans.. I was illustrating absurdity by being absurd myself.
That women are only drawn to the perfect "upside down triangle" guy, and any guy who isn't perfectly fit has been judged to be undateable (which is what I get from the "pounded the gavel" remark) is absurd.
But two can play that game.
If they insist on upside down triangle man, well then we can insist on Scarlett Johanssen.
The whales you see in the locker room didn't exist in the days of yore. Way back before computers and desks, men had to make their living by hunting game or plowing fields, both of which require a decent physique. That combined with the fact that most people, including the people who eventually inhabited Europe lived in areas where you didn't need a lot of clothing.
It's a fairly recent phenomenon that men's (and women's) guts obscured their privates, and I would add it's mainly due to a high-fat, Western diet and a sedentary lifestyle.
It makes me chuckle that it's always men who claim to know what attracts women to them. When women state what they like, they dismiss it. Why? Well, even if a man has the 6'2 muscular physique, they want to give themselves a hedge in case it all goes south. "Ladies, you silly frivolous things don't know what you want. Let us tell you." How convenient - men having it both ways. They demand hotties all the while letting themselves go.
My most recent FWB was and still is a tall, dark and handsome man of 6'2, muscular, etc. Another lover was similar - he could've stepped out of an Abercrombie & Fitch catalog. These men are over 40. Height itself isn't a big deal to me since I'm extremely petite, yet being in shape is. I happen to live in a state that's competitive about staying in shape and eating well. Guys brag about that, not how much booze they can drink. I think it'd be very difficult for me to find someone in good shape in the Midwest, where I'm from.
Even still, I'd bet I'm still more forgiving of men's looks than men are towards women. Not every man goes for my looks - I'm unusual-looking which puts men off because I'm not traditionally attractive or they think I'm adorable. I don't demand that they like me though. I don't whine and say, "Why didn't this hot guy call me?" I just happened to be fortunate to be with attractive men who happen to like my specific looks. Not every man I've been with is traditionally attractive either, and I've had amazing times with them.
But for greater number of men, a woman has to be thin, 20s and tan, even if the man is in his 40s and pot-bellied. DW keeps saying, you should be able to find the woman you deserve.
If you're going to have a nasty, entitled attitude, look in the mirror and put a wig on your head. Aim for that.
Sarah, way back is not really that long ago. After all, computers have only been around for something like 15 years. When I was in school and in college, there were hardly any fat people. We played sports all day long and were outside most of the day. The few fat people that were there really had a hard time, because they were teased and picked on all day long. I do have a car, but I ride my bike mostly, regardless of weather and wind. I sometimes see nobody else on a bike, and the scenery reminds me of the 'Life after people' series on the History Channel. No people.
I agree, if you, as a man, want a hot woman, you have to put something equal or better on the table. I get aggressive on a very primary level when I see fat people. They let themselves go, and that is not acceptable.
You are right again, Hans.
I was a chubby kid. Really tall for my age. I didn't eat poorly. I played sports...was just chubby till I hit my teens. But I was picked on mercilessly in grade school. I was probably 15 lbs heavier than the other girls.
Now? Everyone is huge. Everyone has a bit of a gut or love handles. My daughter is chubby like I was....no one even notices because she's just medium compared to the other kids.
This all plays into my theory that men would rather watch porn than try to get any lady. Because they are fat and so are most of the people they meet.
Melissa
What studies is John talking about? lol I agree, a woman will choose personality over looks, while a man is more visual. If a great looking guy approaches you but is wussy, and then you had a guy who is just average looking or slightly below walks up to you with confidence, going after what he wants without being wussy, you are going to choose him and that other guy you would view as just eye candy..right?
I knew of a couple, she was much better looking that he was, she was older than he was. He was chubby and she was good looking. They got married. As far as age, don't sweat the age thing. Take my mom for example, she became single when my dad divorced her after 23 years of marriage, she was 53. She found a guy a few yeas later who she spent 21 years with. Now year later at 75 years old, what are the odds of finding someone? Impossible right? No! Not only has a guy found her but has asked for her hand and marriage! He is 74 years old...The longest time my mom was single was in her 20's since then she hadn't remain single for long. It is is meant to happen it will happen at any age, so don't feel pressured in finding someone based on your age! :)
Mike.. I never talked about ANY studies. I was quoting "Sarah".
There you go again throwing your bullshit comments without READING the posts your "commenting" on.
One more thing regarding pretty boys, or exceptionally good looking men: a lot, many, maybe even most, women will stay away from these guys because they think that a man like that would never ever stay around for long anyway, given the options he has. I know countless women who eventually married the reliable guy. Where reliable means: utterly boring, and no chemistry. But yes, he is a good provider...
John,
Who were you quoting here or were you just commenting on the type of conversation that you were having?
"Looks are ALL that matters.
That goes for men and women.
If you can’t make yourself look good, then just give up"
Generally only men play most of that game I have guy friends who married less attractive girls but you know what? They were attracted to them, and that is all that matters. Women do not like guys dressing like slobs, that is why they perk up with a well dressed man. My ex loved it when I wore a suit, I wasn't a big time suit guy but I didn't hate to wear one either so wore them more often for her...
Well, what is good looking anyway ? Call me crazy, but Scarlett Johansson does absolutely nothing for me. And neither does Rihanna, I think she is extremely vulgar and ordinary. Angelina Jolie ? I would not ask her out, I am serious. I like Charlize Theron, and I used to like Sigourney Weaver and Kathleen Turner when they were younger. So much for celebrities. On the other hand, there are a couple of ladies at the gym who are maybe not hot by common standards, but they exude so much femininity, you wouldn't believe it. That is maybe the key point here: something about someone turns you on, and that can be all kinds of things.
"Call me crazy, but Scarlett Johansson does absolutely nothing for me"
Tell me about it. I told Scarlett to take out the trash and cook me a meal yesterday, and you know what she did? That's right, she did absolutely nothing for me :(
Are you serious?! I think you need to check yourself into a padded room, Brad, and have your sanity and manhood examined, because you are crazy as hell.
:)
Techno..
No shit!
Any guy who saw Scarlett Johansson changing clothes in the back of the car in the second "Iron Man" movie, or her in the "black widow" suit in "Avengers" or the lingerie picture in I-M2, and says she "doesn't do anything for him", is either GAY or blind.
Scarlett Johansson has a shape that would make an hourglass jealous.
Here's the point of women being less inclined to demand men being physically attractive, even if truth be told, they actually ARE attracted to men who are in shape & have the classic V shape build.
Years ago, my pretty tall blond friend married her long time boyfriend, a man with not just an acne-scarred face, but an acne, upon acne face. He was not physically attractive at all, physically, yet, he had a kick-ass personality and was uber-talented. He wasn't even in particularly good shape - he was blubbery. My friend was googly-eyed in love with him.
Still, we had this neighbor guy upstairs who was smokin' hot, and friendly to boot. Whenever we heard his footsteps coming down our way, we'd both primp, etc. She was always flirting with him, as was I. Sigh. She didn't ditch her man for the hottie, but fantasize? Of course. She was probably doing some image swapping quite a bit.
Women ARE more practical. When and if I settle down again (I doubt it) ,it may be, and most likely be with a man who is not necessarily attractive in the traditional sense, but attractive to me. There just aren't that many Adonises out there and they aren't the only game in town besides.
Hans, you're right, it wasn't all that long since we've had computers, etc, but even prior to that, most people work at desk jobs - physical labor is often done by illegal immigrants nowadays (and yes I'm sure they're looking for action too). I remember I'd go to a pool, see 10 kids - 7 skinny, 2 average, 1 fat. Now it's 7 fat, 2 average & 1 skinny. I remember being too afraid to wear a bikini at 35, but when I showed up at a pool of adolescents, I was the hottest thing there. I was flabbergasted. I had the best female bod at the pool. It was completely ridiculous. In fact, I didn't wear a bikini until I was 35.
So, guys, there is a little more leeway for you for the most part. You can be acne-scarred and fat, and get a babe, but you have to have a phenomenal attitude. You have to make a woman feel so good about herself that she doesn't care what you look like. For us women, that is extremely hard to do. We have to be attractive, in shape and not old (fyi, I'm not young, blah) and true, we have to have a decent personality, but sometimes it seems like that takes a backseat.
I know few overweight women who believe some hottie is going to whisk them off their feet. At the most, these women spend their lives reading bodice-ripping novels and scrapbooking. They've stopped looking entirely. The overweight women I know who want a man are hitting the gym, changing their style and end up in shape, and still with a man with a huge gut. These overweight women don't feel entitled the way some of the men on this blog do. They're very realistic. A lot of men, not so much.
You can get the babe without the looks, but you better have a seriously better attitude.
Sarah,
Hate to be blunt, but I tell it as I see it, and am pretty sure I am reading you right. You were a very heavy, unattractive woman, most of your life, with little sex life, attractiveness to men, and especially experience by handsome men in your early years.
You got tired of your low status, inattention by men, so have worked very hard on improving yourself by, losing weight, working out, and making yourself the most attractive woman that your genetic limits will allow.
You by your own admission are certainly not a classic hotty, but have made yourself attractive enough to garner attention, at least sexually, from a few men that are far above your level of appearance. I doubt I would take a second look at you, and I believe you are still insecure about your appearance, as you still do not put up a picture avatar, even after all the work you have put into making yourself as beautiful as possible, to the opposite sex, hoping to attract the best man possible. You seem to always mention and brag about your Hot's FWB's, boyfriends, and the like, which is actually pretty easy for even an average woman to acquire, with a little confidence, that you have obviously acquired and believe you are entitled to, since you worked so hard to improve yourself.
What is very undesirable is the attitude of superiority and a since of arrogance that now exudes from your comments and advice. your comments to the men here are condescending and rude. Your attitude about men is unattractive and would certainly exude a sense of "bitchyness" and a standoffish impression to me. I would suggest a more "feminine" , caring, response in your comments, and less condemnation of the men here that are trying to improve their skills with women. Your comments to John are especially insensitive and an apology is certainly warranted...
Hey, Bob, think what you want to think about why or why I don't put my picture out there. It's likely you would not want me, but you're not my type anyway even though if your pictures are correct & current, you appear to be attractive in a sort of Village People sort of way. As a matter of fact, you spend quite a bit of your time on this site talking about all the "young things" on your arm, your trysts with "hotties" etc, how you're "a real cowboy" and "were a body-builder," etc. So, you're basically accusing me of doing something you do constantly. And me, the little woman has to sit politely and listen and grin and go "ooh, boy, what a real man." Lookee him, he's got a cowboy hat and all.
I doubt you're even a real cowboy. All hat, no cattle. Where I live, actual cowboys are too busy actually working to comment how "cowboy" they are. And yes, I have met actual working cowboys.
The truth is, until we all meet each other and exchange ids, no one knows the truth.
I'll be honest, you're right, I am not the "hottest" thing out there and not everyone wants me. In fact, I think I've said that more than a few times. Not only that, not everyone I've been with has been "hot" - I've even said that. The fact of the matter is, I am separated from a very long marriage and unfortunately cannot even have a committed relationship until that is settled. So, I'm having fun when I can. That's a good part of the reason why I don't have a photo on this site, not that it matters.
As far as John goes, his awful attitude will never net him any ladies. In fact, I know of a man with similar physical characteristics (I noted this above) who DID get a woman by being a wonderful person. John just needs to take stock of his positive attributes and stop griping about how bad he has it. Someone with John's attitude does not demonstrate that he's trying to improve himself.
Here's your problem Bob, you're aging, fine, aren't we all? Times are changing and women want men to step up to the plate. You claim that you're such a hot cowboy that all the hotties love, well, why don't you encourage your brethren to step up to the plate rather than trying to put me in "my place."
Sarah,
You are a terribly damaged, and bitter woman. I have had to "get rid of" several damaged women after meeting them, and am well aware of the "signs" of it. I have never claimed anything that was not true, and will be happy to prove my claims and info, in any way, to you, or anyone else here. Are you willing to do the same? I have nothing to prove, and no reason to exaggerate or expound on my accomplishments. I know where I stand with women, and what I can and can't have. I have no problem with my age and only seem to attract more women now, than when I was younger. I refuse to treat women with kid gloves, but will tell you like it is. I have tried only to help the guys here, and don't appreciate the women man bashing us, ON OUR BLOG, (this is the man's blog, in case you did not know) I am trying to get you to recognize your anger ,toward men, and condescending attitude.
What would you like? I will be happy to prove my honesty. Pictures, with some of my women, have some of my girls write in, pictures of my many world champion buckles, me training my horses, or pictures of my ranch in OK and my vacation home in FL. Happy to provide, for your satisfaction. Please rethink your negative attitudes toward men. And, Please don't pull Mel into your dark place. I don't think either of will benefit from continued bantering, but I at least, am happy to prove my integrity.
Melissa
Tuesday, May 21st, 2013
Sarah-
Ah...you are so right. My own bathing suit epiphany came at a water park. I was 34, with my young kids in tow, wearing a one piece (you kind of have to at a water park) and realized that I was by far the woman in the best shape in the park (this was at Cedar Point, John). But what stunned me the most is that the giant fat girls didn't seem to CARE. Neither did the huge boys. Back in my day, kids that size would be swimming with a t-shirt on. No more.
What you say is so true. Most of the really overweight women I know have decided to take love off the table and devote their lives to other tasks...taking care of family, friends, pets...whatever. They have usually been hurt too much by men just using them for sex or burned by a series of unrequited crushes. They give up.
Men, on the other hand, feel entitled. No matter what.
Does a good looking woman feel entitled? Maybe some...but I would say only the ELITE. Most of us know of and magnify our imperfections in our own minds to such extent that we bruise our own egos. I may think I look great when I leave the house and then eat a burger and feel horrible and bloated for the rest of the night. All I'm saying is that it doesn't take much for me to feel less than up to snuff. There really aren't that many women walking around thinking they are god's gift...though I know men think there are tons.
I don't like fat men who are lazy. I don't mind a bigger guy who is constantly working in the yard and is solid underneath. Bald is fine. Quirky is fine. Heck, Seal got Heidi. Ric got Paulina. Mick got Bianca. Those are ugly-ass men. You don't even SEE women that ugly walking about because we stone them and shut them in the clock tower.
Moral of the story, John. You can have any woman you want, just change your attitude and be like Bob.
Me? I can have sex with any guy I want. I just can't find a guy to love me. You will find a woman to love you. I am certain. Women love to love and be loved.
Melissa, you're right. We're so much more flexible than men are. Men don't really know how lucky they are that this is a man's world and they write all the rules.
The main thing is being in shape - anyone can be in shape. You can't change your face, height or hair except with a lot of medical intervention, but getting into shape can be done by anyone. I will say that all the "ugly" men you mentioned are extremely wealthy and talented, so they have assets which are out of reach for most people.
Yeah, it's really sad about kids these days when women in their 30s are in better shape. Really sad. I was like, "WTF?" It was pretty scary.
Sarah-
I realize that the men in my examples are wealthy and talented...BUT so are the women. Heidi is one of the wealthiest models in the world...certainly more so than Seal.
They are at least equals on the wealth front. And I wonder if being married to a rock star is anything like being married to a carpenter...perhaps they don't get songs sung to them just like a carpenter's house is constantly in disrepair... :-)
I don't get why no one bothers to be in shape. At least do it for yourself. It has to be hard to go through life not remembering the last time you saw your junk.
Jorge
Tuesday, May 21st, 2013
Village People? Bob? Say it isn't so!
What's next? Bruce is the Indian guy? John is the construction dude?
YMCA...
You guys are beginning to treat each other with the same attitude as John....lol Sarah says Bob brags about himself too much, Bob says Sarah is ugly because Sarah said he wouldn't be physically attractive to her. I rather have a gal not show her pic then to show how she looked 10 to 20 years ago like I think a lot of them do in those online dating sites. I'm not sure what the men do, perhaps there are many who do the same.
Men or ore visual but a real man is not going to settle for just looks, even if she is hot and she has no personality, the attraction fades. She just becomes "eye candy"...Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there are many men who would find Sarah attractive. Many women are critical of their looks, so Sarah could be better looking than she thinks. She is recovering from a bad relationship so new doors will eventually open for her. Bob and Sarah don't take things so personally, you guys should focus on improving yourself not disqualifying yourself from each other...
I do agree with Sarah about John, I came to that conclusion months ago after reading many of his posts...
Well Mike, I came to conclusions about you too. ..
You are a closet homosexual. I can tell by your unnatural interest in 50 shades of grey. You haven't come to grips yet with your homosexuality, and are on the men's side of the blog, because you are trying to fight your homosexual tendencies.
You also need your ass kicked really badly. I would be willing to help you with that, if I didn't think your gas ass would like it so much.
My advice is, quit trying to fight it, eat a dick, and go fuck yourself straight in the ass... homo.
John, I'm not sure if he's closet material... but the Flower avatar, his reading interests and the tone of his posts is a little odd indeed... or maybe he's a psychiatrist?
The funniest thing is how you people like to throw your judgements and personal attacks at me, yet all of you came to this site for the same reason as me.
What a joke.
David.. I decided I will NOT be attending the upcoming bootcamp that we discussed. If you were holding a spot open, go ahead and fill it. If I don't see any confirmation that you have recieved this here.. I'll send you an email to confirm my cancellation.
Thanks.
I am falling off my chair reading some of the comments here ! I thank God each and every day for the ability of man to read and write. It's just hilarious !
Sarah and Melissa are giving us some very valuable advice here. A lack of looks can be compensated with a kick-ass personality. The ideal situation would be a guy in mint shape and with a class A personality. I have never met one. In fact, some of the guys at the gym who are in better shape are SO boring and dull, I don't ever see a woman talk to them.
The worst thing about fat people is indeed that they don't even care anymore. They are not ashamed anymore to reveal their antarctic walrus shaped bodies to the greater public. I was at the pool a few days ago. Have you guys seen the movie 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest' ? Remember the Indian ? Well, this guy looked like the Indian, only, he was twice as big. I stood in awe as he leaped into the water. I swear that the pool emptied almost entirely. The sound was very similar to the sound a whale makes when it leaps out of the water, hangs in the air for a split second, and then smashes back, breaking the surface. You know what I mean, it is on the National Geographic channel all the time.
One more thing: a guy, any guy, in his fifties must realize that he is dangerously close to the dirty old man zone. Especially when talking to and engaging women in their twenties. I am not fifty yet, but I ask girls all the time if they think I am a dirty old man, or if I am getting close. I don't think a 25 year old woman takes me seriously anyway.
I just don't agree that "fat women" give up and never get love, or find a man. 90% of the couples I see walking around over 30 have a fat woman on a man's arm (Of course he is usually overweight as well). I see no evidence of "fat women" sitting around, moping, and not thinking of ever finding a man. If that were true there would be a lot of sad "fat women", since most of them are overweight. But instead I see most of them with men, everywhere.
What bothers me about the women (most of the comments)on the blog, is that it is constant blaming of the men for, not approaching, expecting only hot #10 babes who are 24 years old, are shallow, fat, lazy, and worthless nowadays. It is a constant barrage of man bashing by the women on the blog. I see no evidence of trying to "help", but more anger and disgust with men, which does not "help" us at all to improve with women. The men here are trying to improve and learn (including John, in his way), and don't need more vicious criticism directed toward them.
Just this week, I am having my pool resurfaced. there are 8 former marines, in perfect shape, who work from 8 till the job is done without complaining I have become very good friends with two of them, and we are even going fishing next weekend, with our girls.
I just don't see that men have become so worthless, shallow, and lazy. No more so than women. I think women, as well as men, need to look within themselves, if they are not having success with the opposite sex, and recognize that there may be an improvement need on their part, rather than blaming others for their unhappiness.
Wygant teaches this way of thinking. All of his material (paid portions) are designed with projects and exercises to work on yourself, and not to blame the opposite sex for your problems.
Bob-
I've just been trying to point out that it's MEN who have all the options and power...no matter what they look like.
A good example is the dude from the show Restaurant Impossible. He is really goofy looking in the face. But, he's got a great build and a dynamic personality. And he has a beautiful wife.
I think it's helpful for men like John, who constantly bash themselves, to know that we don't give a rip about looks. Fitness, personality- yes. And that stuff you can work on. AND that's just to get a hot chick! If you want to stay pasty and fat, lack personality and be a bad dresser...you can still get a chick as a man...and most likely...she will still be more attractive than you are. This is a *positive* message for men.
Those women you see? Bet they have been with their men forever and got fat together. Apples and oranges. They are not 'dating'.
Doubt that any one of those Marines brings a fattie to your boat.
"Women don't give a rip about looks"
Then we read this..
"men would rather watch porn than try to get any lady. Because they are fat and so are most of the people they meet."
"Still, we had this neighbor guy upstairs who was smokin’ hot, and friendly to boot. Whenever we heard his footsteps coming down our way, we’d both primp, etc. She was always flirting with him, as was I. Sigh."
"Study after study shows, women are drawn to the male with the classic upside down triangle physique, not an apple. You might not think it’s bad for a guy to have a gut, but women have pounded the gavel on this one."
"These boys- all super overweight, sloppy looking, just….really unattractive …the guys who would have remained dateless till they started making money (in my day) were dating the cheerleader. I would love to know what is going on. Did all the men die?"
There are MANY more examples of this in this thread alone. Then you tell us in the next breath that women don't care about looks.
Going back to the traffic light situation I wrote about earlier.. Then why were the girls behaving the way they did? Was it because they didn't like my personality from two lanes over, while I was waiting at a traffic light while doing my job?
All I ever see from the two women on these MEN'S blogs is hypocrisy, flip-flopping, and man bashing.
Peter
Tuesday, May 21st, 2013
Melissa and Sarah have nailed it. I see it all around me, each and every day. Old guys, fat guys, ugly guys, unemployed guys, guys who basically have nothing to offer, they ALL check out the young, hot 25 year old on the treadmill. Nothing wrong with that, but they realistically think they have a chance with that woman. Age is the only thing you cannot do anything about. We all get older. The rest is up to you. You were not born fat, and very few, if any, people are really ugly. Most of them also look better when they get in shape. Most jobs, even the high paying ones, are really not that difficult. It is simply a question of willingness to put an effort into it.
"Most jobs, even the high paying ones, are really not that difficult."
That is a very refreshing perspective, Peter :). Love it!
I'm in cutting edge technology and my job is rocket science compared to what most people do. So my ego likes to think it's a very difficult job because very few people can do it. BUT, I should probably be more modest. Here's the rub:
The knowledge I need to do my job is readily available for free on the internet. If you have a sharp mind and take a summer (NOT four or eight years like society says you need, just one summer!) of your time to devote yourself fully to learning my craft, you know enough to be employable. If after that if you would discipline yourself to watch one training video and look at one sample project every week no matter what, you will eventually catch up to me or pretty much anyone. And as for my activities, I spend 95% of my time exercising basic fundamental knowledge. As a rule of thumb, every project has exactly one problem where I need to strain my cranium, and the rest is about just having solid fundamentals.
Here's the other rub though: how many people do you know who can take summers off to learn a new skill? When is that last time you took any time at all to learn a new skill for your job? The point I am getting at is: it's a lowered bar you need to hurdle as an employee. If the sports world were like the business world, it would look like the social sports leagues I used to go to. Social sports is where it's not about sports - it's about socializing, and the sports are just there as an excuse to get together and drink afterwards. So no one really cares about the sport, or their technique, or about training or practicing their serve to improve it, etc. If you can just get the ball over the net and you do any training at all, you are already better than most. And yes I am still talking about business, not about sports :)
I have to correct myself on something though:
Most jobs are difficult to GET, more so than difficult to DO.
In my previous example, if you want someone to hire you based on studying your craft for a summer instead of for four years, you'd better have a damn good demo and some luck. But just in terms of skills, you'd be ready, and since technology is an industry where demand is high and skills are easily proven and disproven I am confident you could pull it off.
Then I forget that most industries can't be like that. How do you prove to an employer how good of a lawyer, doctor, accountant, nurse, etc you are for example?
Peter,
Checking out a woman's looks doesn't always mean he thinks he is entitled to dating her! It's no secret that people on tv for example look good, why? Because it's geared for men, a channel in Florida dumped the head guy and put him on weeks while hiring a beautiful gal to take his place. Why? Ratings, most that are on in the mornings and daytime are women. Since they hired her for the ratings, it had gone up. Back to your gym, I don't think any of those guys thought they had a chance, I believe they were dreaming they did. Because most guys who believe she will go out him, and he wants to go out with her, he's going to approach and ask rather than just sit there and stare.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Mexican culture tends to favor heavier women and having a lot of kids...lol Not all of them but a good portion.
One of the ladies (I think it was Sara) just pointed something out:
I'm an equal opportunity discriminator. Pretty much ANY woman can get into decent shape. Everyone has a chance. So get over it, girls. Ha :p
And Mike just answered a long standing question of yours, Melissa. The reason guys will gawk at you but not approach you is often because they just assume they are Not Worthy. And based on your history of postings they are probably right ;)
Another little known factoid for the ladies: when a woman is EXTREMELY good looking, it has an instant physical effect on a guy that's almost like being punched in the gut. Oof! Possible after effects include a remarkable reduction of IQ points and a tendency for a man to give all his power away without reason. These symptoms only happen around remarkably attractive women though, so I bet these women have a very different perspective on men's behavior than I do.
I hope you are kidding. From my postings you can clearly see that I am kind and open to pretty much anything aside from the homeless, jobless, toothless...
Food for thought: one of my friends who does well with women is an anomaly. He actually prefers women who are out of shape or not conventionally attractive because he says they need loving too and they will appreciate him more than the pretty ones. And he himself is in great shape and good looking! He's been trying to convince me to lower my standards.
Melissa,
I have a shoulder which either has stretching or tearing of the ligaments. I'm going to see a specialist soon along with doing an MRI. So I'm going to be a bit slow with responding to people in here but I wanted to respond to your comments about improving your odds for men to approach you.
You say, "I think it’s cute how you talk like it’s all so easy. If I was willing to make my life a life-long experiment, I would take bets right now that I could do what you say…go to cafes, smile at clerks, play sports with men (???) and still die alone. I did the math yesterday. In my ‘available to date’ life (age 16 up) I’ve been single (ie, no ring on my finger) for 12 years. NEVER has a man approached me outside of a bar type setting. A couple of clerks in stores have chatted me up a bit extra, but no man has ever had the gumption/interest/been actually single to strike up a conversation. That’s a lot of years and a lot of different locales."
A friend of mine use to go to this food store a lot and normally talked to the clerks. While there she notices a man whom she is attracted to, she seen him many times but he never talked to her. But one day, while she was tasting some food, he walked up next to her and said, "hey buddy, how's the food?" And they began to have a great conversation. You are correct, you could still be alone, but you could also have no confidence in men and approach guys yourself like at the beer tasting thing, and end up alone too with no lasting relationship. I gathered you have approached many guys in the past because you felt no confidence towards them approaching you.
Years ago, a guy at work, asked if I was married because I was so happy all the time, I said, "no" I'm single. Married people have an easier time meeting because they have no walls, they are not walking around with smart phones looking really busy when they are interested in being approached (most guys will not approach a girl who looks busy) or trying to be coy, or trying to not look like their checking someone out. Married people don't care, but that should apply for single people, bring down those walls which hinder you! Stop thinking end result because it can happen either way or it did happen but not the way you wanted to go (he didn't approach the first time your paths crossed) but start living!
I have confidence in you Melissa, I think there are a ton of guys who want what you have to offer, it's just a matter of giving them viable opportunities so you can show them who you are! :)
Mike-
Again, that's cute and all and we shall see.
Beer Fest guy has my number. I didn't get his. He won't call and I didn't even want to be in the position to wonder if I should call him or text him. It's just crazy because I literally have no idea why he hung out with me all day at the beer fest. It's not like he tried to get me to go back to his hotel with him...what the F did he want with me? Why bother?
I guess I will just keep looking around. Funny, I was just looking back at some pics from last summer/early fall. I was very sick...had just found out I had Lyme disease. But...I looked a lot happier then than I feel now. That was when I had started online dating in earnest. I was hopeful and it was fun. 8 months later now and I feel like I look bad and my attitude stinks. Wow.
Melissa
Tell me more about Beer Fest Dude (guy)...What did you two talk about during that day when you hung out with him? I'll tell you this...A guy is not going to hang out with a woman all day if he didn't like her! Especially someone he just met. If he didn't like you, he would have found a way to part company. He felt you were worth hanging out with! Did you feel he was attracted to you while you hung out with him or what? How long has it been since you seen him?
Sorry to hear you got Lyme disease, I have a friend who has the same thing. If I was you, I would keep looking around till these men that you meet, make an effort (like calling, setting up the date). You can chalk up beer fest as a good experience, at least you didn't find a crazy drunk that you would had to dump! It's his loss! This faze in your life will become a blur once you meet him. Till then, hang in there! It will be alright! :)
Mike-
Beer Fest guy...well, it was beer fest. We talked about beer, walked to the different booths together trying each other's favorites. Talked about ourselves, got to know each other. He had a depressing friend with him whose wife had just left him. Ended up having to counsel that guy a lot...but, it was all okay. By the time he left he was holding my hand and he kissed me goodbye (just like a small kiss, not making out at beer fest).
I honestly thought it was a pretty good, honest connection. But clearly, I have no clue. This was on Saturday. If the tables were turned, and I was the one with the phone number, I definitely would have texted him on Sunday, telling him it was great to meet him and wondering if he had a bad head (it was a beer fest after all).
Whatever...moving on.
Funny, I was at the doc's office yesterday and ended up chatting with the nurse for a while. She's cute, in her 40's, single and dating as well. Same story as every woman I know and she says the same thing. Dating is impossible. Meeting men online? Will go on 3-4 dates and never hear from them again- sex in that time frame or no sex, doesn't matter. Had a good time, doesnt matter. They just move on to someone new. Guys are older, in bad shape but still think they are god's gift and act accordingly, especially if they have 2 nickels to rub together. She even said, "I think I need to work on looking more approachable in stores and stuff...always too focused on what I am doing." ACK!!! It was like talking to the mirror.
Every single woman I know is having the same exact problems with dating men in their late 30-40s....I would *love* to know the root cause.
The root cause...might just be a lot more simple than we all think: necessity. When you are twenty, you have nothing. You put a lot, and I mean a whole lot, of energy into finding a partner. Everybody at that age is dating, everybody is looking, and expectations with regard to the other person are sky high. Once people find a partner, they sort of submerge. They build stuff together, families, homes, careers, and if they are lucky, some grow together, but most grow apart. For guys, everything changes dramatically when the kids come. They face a life where the kids are always first, and they are always second. They wonder where the heck that woman went they liked so much. But she is gone. Now she is a mother. And they, the guys, become a tool that serves the greater good, which is the well being of the children. As the woman loses her shape, and that can be taken quite literally, and her willingness to spend more time than absolutely necessary between the sheets with him, he starts checking out other women. Because all he can think about is how it used to be. A man wants the thrill, the adrenaline, the adventure, he basically wants to hunt. The vast majority of guys are too chicken to get a divorce, so most of them stay in unhappy marriages, because yes, it is probably better than being alone, with no one to cook your meals and do your laundry. In addition, alimony would kill them, so until the kids leave the house, they are toast.
And here comes the root cause: those guys (in their forties) who are available and free are not really available. Because if there is one thing they cherish more than a football with a genuine Tom Brady autograph, it is their freedom and the ability to do whatever they want to do. They never again in their lives want to have a woman around who bitches about them going off during unusual times of the day or night. I think it is female nature to have a need to control living things. And they can - like the Terminatrix. It is male nature to take risks and do things that are out of control, to advance, to move forward. If the entire human population would exist solely of women, they would all still live in caves. Men build roads, cities, technology, women make sure the species continues to exist. There are exceptions, but in general, that is the way it is.
Now, Melissa, you meet a guy, and even if he likes you, it is highly unlikely that he is willing to give up a lot of the life he leads for you. In fact, he doesn't want to give up an inch. He wants to watch Monday Night football, he wants to watch college football on Saturday, and the NFL on Sunday. He wants to watch each and every single game of the NBA playoffs. He doesn't need you anymore to grow, because he is finished growing. At least that is what he thinks. Personally, I believe that the right person can give someone an incredible boost, and that someone is usually someone of the opposite sex. So what does he need you for ? Sex ? Although porn is not really a substitute, he shivers at the thought of feeling obliged to call you x days after having sex, to be obliged to feel attached to you, even if he isn't, and that thought alone keeps him from moving forward.
Now don't get me wrong, this sounds harsh, but it is the reality for most men. I am not sitting at home making this up, I move around a lot, and I meet a lot of people.
But as with everything, there is a solution. If you can give a guy the feeling that you in no way threaten his freedom, that he can do whatever he wants, and that you could do things TOGETHER that are much more fun together than doing them alone, he is probably going to take the bait. This only works when the things you do together genuinely interest both of you. Watching football and basketball is probably not among those things. The trick is always to add something to someone's life, and not to be a burden. You already stated what you want from a man, and what you want doesn't sound unreasonable. I think most guys actually like to be a little protective, to have a woman's back, to fix stuff, it makes them feel like...a man !
Hans-
This is what we all suspect. How terribly short-sighted of these men. We don't 'need' them either, you know. I actually enjoy my freedom quite a bit. I am self sufficient...as are all the women I know. But we all know that these guys just can't be bothered.
But...the hole in your argument is the fact that these men don't even bother having any kind of relationship, period. It isn't even 'exciting' at any point to engage with these guys. And they don't go off in the middle of the night or do whatever ...they have jobs and responsibilities and most of them have shared custody. They can't 'do' anything. What do they think they are doing?
They certainly don't get to the point of figuring out whether or not I would bitch at them for having a life in the first place. They don't date anyone long enough.
But, hell. If this is what men think then I guess I will go read David's p$&@$ eating column and go down that road. Clearly men do not have the same need for love and affection that women do and have become completely disenfranchised....but I am kind of done with being depressed by it. It's killing me.
Melissa, ouch...I didn't mean to add to any sort of frustration. But to tell you the truth: I know exactly what you feel, because I am faced with the exact same frustration. Obviously I am not looking for a romantic relationship with a man, but it sure would be nice to make some new friends now and then. How hard is that - well, it is very near to impossible. People, guys in particular barely talk to each other anymore. I work as a freelancer, often at large companies. Is it too much to ask for at least a reply when I walk into the office in the morning and say 'Hello' ? 90 percent does not even notice, they just sit there. I meet guys at the coffee machine who tell me how much pension they will have - and retirement is 20 years from now ! They are already done. I really sometimes wish we would have a severe economic crisis, just so that people would have to depend on each other again.
Anyway, I know plenty of these guys you describe. They shut down. What does it take to wake them up ? When one of my friends gets fat, he is going to hear it. No mercy. No understanding. And it usually works. It is the same with guys and women. Too afraid to go over and talk to her ? My advice: are you gay ? Are you a f@#$ing fag ? Why don't you call your mother and ask her for advice ? I really love to push people to the limit if necessary, and the result is always positive.
You see, you are not alone. People who are really and genuinely interested in somebody else are far and in between.
Hans- yes. Agreed. I don't know many men who made new friends outside of the ones they met in grade school. If they do, it will be literally *any* guy...doesn't matter if the guy is weird, if they have nothing in common, nothing. If they can sit in silence and have a beer together, they're content. Very few men have a real need for situmulating discourse outside of academia and even then it's just a bunch of useless posturing. So...I feel for you.
There is no answer here.
Funny though...yesterday I got a procedure done on my face (perhaps tmi, but I had some visible veins removed...one of those things that bothered me but no one else really noticed)...my eyes look like I got punched today. I wore my glasses to work but still didn't feel all that cute. But I went out for a drink with a girl from work anyway.
No one approached but the story is that I felt pretty relaxed and free knowing that I looked 'ugly'. That I didn't care if I got noticed and was hoping not to in a way. Was a very different experience. Huh.
Melissa,
So Beer Fest Guy was with a friend who needed some serious help. It's not that you don't have a clue, you went on the only thing you can go on, I think Beer Fest Guy was using you. He was at the beer fest for a reason, yea he likes beer but I think he was trying to get his friend to do some drinking so he would chill out on all his sorrows. He was most likely sick of listening to his friend as you observed, he had to counsel him a lot. You were a relief to him otherwise he would have had to counsel him even more and I think he did like you in a way but the small kiss after spending the day with you was a friends type kiss! He wouldn't have made out with you even though he might have been interested because of his friend. In my opinion I think that guy is a jerk!
Do you like guys who drink a lot? It seems to me you always find someone when there is drinks being served. Is that why you have created the assumption that men require beer to socialize with you? Men who love beer too much tend to be out of shape too...lol
What you are describing is "artificial ego" because they are masking their lack of confidence. If men thought they were really God's gift to women, they would be approaching you all over the place. These guys you have sampled were from the internet. No approaching necessary. They are very good at text messaging, setting up dates, but have no interest there after. Why? Because they are afraid of rejection so they leave first. A real man put himself out there, just like you put yourself out there for Beer Fest guy which makes you a real woman! There are many guys who want to go out with you, who want a relationship, some of them want to get married, these guys haven't found you yet! Go get them! :)
Mike-
Interesting take, but who knows. Regarding the kiss, I wouldn't have responded well to a full-blown make out attempt in the middle of the beer fest so I guess there's no winning there, correct? My honest thought is that he has a girlfriend. He was 35, a decent job and pretty good looking. The beer fest was out of town for everyone. I am sure he had a girl friend at home. Guys always do.
Do I like guys who drink a lot? I don't know? Everyone around here drinks somewhat. Usually no matter the activity- seeing a sporting event, participating in sports, dinner, comedy- there are drinks involved at some point. The Beer Fest was crazy...all it was was booths upon booths of tasting beers from around the world. Lots of drinks.
Men who think they are god's gift don't approach because they don't think they have to or that they should or they don't want to waste their time. They are comfortable with the *thought* that they could get any woman they want (because of money, usually) and just don't feel like making the effort.
Last guy I went out with actually told me this. I told him that no woman I know gets approached any more. He almost laughed at me and basically said, "Duh. Why would I? If you are sitting there talking to your friend, why would I ever go up to you and interrupt your conversation? That would just be creepy. I wouldn't waste my time. It's a lot easier to log on to Match and find a million other 'yous' who are saying that they are available."
Can't argue with that logic.
" I wouldn’t waste my time. It’s a lot easier to log on to Match and find a million other ‘yous’ who are saying that they are available."
I liked that passage. It brought up two thoughts:
First one is a lingering thought I have had for a long time. I suspect that these men you and your friends are dating and complain about are much smarter than they seem. That's why they are the ones who you are dating and complaining about, not the one whose shoulder you cry on to complain about how awful men are :). Not smart in the traditional nerdy way, but in another way that is foreign to brainiacs like us.
Second one is way off the deep end and only cute if you are a hopeless nerd like me:
LIke I said before I think a side effect of men becoming girlier and women becoming manlier is that it is bad for relationships because it eliminates the male/female polarity that causes attraction. And as you know if you paid attention in school, if you have almost no polarity, almost no voltage, the only way to get a good current flowing is to have almost no resistance. I.e. men sending winky faces on dating sites instead of buying drinks and approaching, or women lowering their standards :)
Damn, I think too much. It's a weakness I have.
Melissa,
Being 35, good looking with a decent job doesn't mean he has a girlfriend, but let's say he did. Would you want to date him, knowing that he can hang out with a friend of his, meet a woman and then spend the day with her, hold her hand, get her number. Would you really want to be his girlfriend? Perhaps you are using that reason to justify why he didn't call you so it doesn't feel like it was your fault. And it wasn't your fault either way. I'm not saying he didn't have a girlfriend or not, it's hard to say. If he did have a girlfriend, and was really into her, he would have brought her up in the conversation with you because I think he knew you liked him and he wouldn't have been holding your hand nor getting your number. .
We live in confusing times with finding someone. Most men are taught that you find someone at a bar/club or at someone's party, wedding, school, or work. Guys are not encouraged nor taught to approach women in every day life outside those contexts. So it is not always feeling comfortable with the thought of a man thinking he's God's gift to every woman rather than acting upon it. I think single women haven't been taught much either on how to attract a guy (not just being eye candy) so he approaches.
I was at the hospital's clinic yesterday to see a doctor. I was approached by a nice lady who talked to me about what was happening in the moment. She backed away when she starting to talk to me (she looked nervous) but was smiling at me the whole time. As I stood there waiting with a look of "this has been a long wait" on my face, A young cute gal slowly enters my space, parks herself slightly ahead of me about 2 1/2 feet which was a lot closer than that lady who previously talked to me but eyeing up her cell phone. I remember David referring to this in one of his blogs. How single women look busy to past the moment. Two minutes later, my are was ready, I took one step toward the door, she quickly glanced at me and then I walked past her to my car. Most guys would think she is too busy to talk to. If I was constantly starting at my cell phone would you think I was available to talk..? lol What signals to you give a man when your attracted to him?
.
David be confident . blah blah blah allow her to quilfay herself to you Asian guy actually describes why compliance works demonstration of leadership skills and motivate the other person to get to know you because you lead an interesting life etc. Therefore compliance is more of effect. Leadership and self-confident will lead to compliance rather than simply manipulate other person to invest their time in you. That Asian can articulate the concept.
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